![Deborah Fabian -工作中的翻译](http://www.simplesudz.com/news/diversity-goes-to-work-podcast/images/deborah-fabian-5-episode-art.jpg)
黛博拉费边
第五集:2021年11月8日
工作中的翻译
在今天的《多样性发挥作用》节目中,主持人菲尔·瓦格纳欢迎威廉与玛丽校友黛博拉·法比安。黛博拉分享了她作为跨性别专业人士的不可思议的旅程;从出于恐惧在同事面前隐藏真实的自己,到学会爱真实的自己,最后在职业生涯后期完全转变,以及在这一过程中学到的经验教训。
播客(音频)
播客(平台)
iTunes|钉箱机|一夜|亚马逊音乐/声音|Spotify|谷歌播客
显示记录
|
成绩单菲尔·瓦格纳嗨,朋友。感谢收看又一期《多样性发挥作用》节目。通常情况下,我们以一个有趣、乐观的介绍开始每一集。虽然今天的对话会很有趣,也会有一些很棒的对话,但我们想给你们一点内容上的警告。在今天与我们的嘉宾黛博拉·法比安博士的对话中,我们将进行一些艰难的对话。我们会讨论性别认同,过渡中的身体,甚至会提到自杀。如果这些话题对你来说听起来有点过于激烈,我们邀请你这次脱离。和往常一样,两周后再回来看下一集。谢谢收听。大家好,这里是威廉玛丽大学梅森商学院。 I'm Phil, and this is Diversity Goes to Work. Buckle up because we're getting ready to take a deep dive into the real human-lived experiences that shape and guide our diversity work in the world of work. Should be fun. Thank you for joining us yet again on another episode of Diversity Goes to Work, a podcast where we center the human experiences of our diversity, equity, and inclusion work. It is a true honor today to speak with an alum and somebody who I have gotten to know quite well over the past few weeks. I'm so excited to chat with her. Joining me today is Deborah Fabian. Deborah, welcome to our podcast. It is truly an honor to have you today. Deborah Fabian博士太好了。很高兴来到这里,我非常喜欢威廉玛丽,希望能更多地回到这个圈子里。 菲尔·瓦格纳是的,我们很兴奋。如果你在William & Mary的网站上快速搜索一下,你会发现Deb的身影随处可见。她的名字出现在一些故事中,她也参与其中,我想我们很高兴能让你们,在你们即将退休的时候,在今年回到一些课程中。黛博拉,告诉我们一些关于你的职业和你做了什么自从你离开威廉玛丽在我们进入今天的实际录制过程之前。 Deborah Fabian博士好的。当我在71年离开威廉玛丽时,第一件事就是我被征召入伍,然后在那年秋天开始上医学院。从医学院毕业后,去达特茅斯做了几年住院医生,然后被调去服现役。然后在80年代初完成了我的骨科住院医师实习从那以后就一直在骨科工作。在过去的六七年里,我在路易斯安那州波尔克堡的一个军事基地为政府工作,目前在新墨西哥州的盖洛普印第安人医疗中心工作。所以这是一种非常专业的经历,但你提到了退休,我还有两周就 菲尔·瓦格纳我正想问,我们有官方倒计时吗?两个星期。太令人兴奋了。 Deborah Fabian博士这很令人兴奋,但也有点令人担忧,因为如果你数一数,我50年前就开始读医学院了。所以这就是我的生活,做骨科医生,所以我仍然在努力弄清楚我长大后要做什么。 菲尔·瓦格纳是的,当然。黛博拉,我听说东海岸是退休后定居的好地方,如果你在威廉斯堡需要任何帮助,我们这里有一些很棒的房地产经纪人,我们很乐意让你住得近一点。 Deborah Fabian博士这就是我的计划。 菲尔·瓦格纳好吧,让我们看看这能不能实现。黛博拉,我们谈论的不只是你的职业生涯。我们也在谈论一些你的个人经历,我提到过,如果你在威廉玛丽的网站上快速搜索一下,你会找到一些关于你的故事。你一直都很乐意讲这个故事,而且这个故事很有力量。今天,我们主要讨论跨性别身份的经历,我想知道你是否介意分享一下你的故事。我知道这很复杂,跨越了不同的时间入口,但你能在这里与我们分享这个故事吗?故事的一部分是从威廉玛丽开始的,对吗? Deborah Fabian博士是的。回到70年代、60年代和50年代,当我长大的时候,变性人这个词还不存在,当我去图书馆或者试图找到任何关于我的感受的信息时,术语和描述都是残酷的。所以我试着去接受那些日子里那是我的一部分,我发现这是不可能的,因为那些描述和精神病学的诊断。我无法容忍自己。我已经尽力掩饰了。我对所有人都隐瞒了这件事,也试图对自己隐瞒,但那真的不管用。它一直都在那里。另一方面,我在威廉玛丽学校踢足球。我加入了一个兄弟会,做得很好。我内心深处有种感觉,生活并不美好。 菲尔·瓦格纳你在我读到的一些对话中提到了一点。你说了闭门不出的感觉。我想知道你是否能引导我们完成自我接纳的过程。显然,这不是一条简单的道路,而你再次出来的那段时间,就像你说的,是一段复杂的时间。虽然我们在跨性别包容方面取得了一些重大进展,但它并不总是跨性别平等的温床。那么,通过内心的过程来舒服地拥有这个身份是什么感觉呢? Deborah Fabian博士我得说我必须克服很多非自我认同。我的意思是,在医学院的时候,我会在精神病学教科书中读到我认为的易装癖和变性。在精神病学教科书中,这很可怕。这是严重的。我记得引用了严重的精神疾病。这在别的地方已经写过了,但我要再说一遍,当我还是医科学生的时候,我们的精神病区有一个跨性别病人她试图自杀,精神科住院医生基本上都在背后嘲笑她说她该死,因为她搞砸了。我和自己作斗争,听到这些,有意识或无意识地决定,我永远不能告诉任何人。我在做住院医生的时候被逮捕过,我在外面穿异性服装,说来话长,但我还是被逮捕了。脱衣搜身,被扔进监狱,指控被撤销,但我在一两天后去看了心理医生,他告诉我,每当你觉得自己是个女人,或者每当你想穿得像个女人,记得自己在牢房里跪在马桶前,我就是这么洗掉化妆品的。那是70年代中期 菲尔·瓦格纳哇。我想说清楚一点。你是住院医生你接受过严格的训练。你已经证明了你的专业能力,而另一方面,你评估的病人类型,你因为在当时被称为异装而被公开逮捕。这一切都是一起发生的? Deborah Fabian博士正确的。是的。 菲尔·瓦格纳简直难以置信。这是六七十年代。是那个时候发生的吗? Deborah Fabian博士大概是76年,77年的时候。那天晚上我拿了一些药,在梳妆台上看了大约三个晚上。那时我有一个一岁大的女儿,她救了我的命。 菲尔·瓦格纳哇。 Deborah Fabian博士那是70年代。这就是当时的想法。所以我有一种强烈的自我厌恶,即使是恢复中立也需要大量的工作。回到我能接受自己的状态,只是不想自杀。 菲尔·瓦格纳我很确定从专业角度来说,当你回到住院医生阶段时,肯定会有一个复杂的身份协商过程,对吧?你如何向其他住院医生或你的病人或知情人士重新说明你的身份?如果我说错了请纠正我,黛博拉,你开始以黛博拉的身份生活,是在61岁,61岁?对吗? Deborah Fabian博士62岁,是的。 菲尔·瓦格纳好吧,62。那是什么样的呢?我不想把这些话强加给你,但似乎在那段旅程中,生活在中间的空间里。我想我们已经看到这个词被用来形容那些出柜成为跨性别者的人,他们正在经历转变的过程,甚至只是以一种公开的方式来证明这种身份。那是什么感觉,尤其是在那些专业领域,但直到62岁才到达那里? Deborah Fabian博士就在我被捕后,医院里唯一知道的人是外科主任,我想他不好意思问我这件事,而我刚刚去看了心理医生。所以我想我不用再这么做了。我治好了。如果没有治愈,我对自己感到非常尴尬和厌恶,我不需要告诉任何人。我很好。所以中间有一段很短的时间因为那是。那时我多大?30岁左右。我把它完全关闭了。不是需要,也不是渴望,但在完全隐秘的情况下,仍然有异性装扮。 But going out, telling anybody, absolutely not. It was all internal until the mid-'80s when I couldn't not talk to somebody about it. So I found an advertisement for a therapist who dealt deals. She's now in her 80s, and we're still very good friends, but she dealt with this. The initial process was it wasn't certainly a physical transition. It was a mental transition. So the first number of years working with her was getting over this, thinking I needed to kill myself and getting over the hatred of myself before I could even begin to start accepting myself. I don't know if that makes sense, but there's a pendulum I guess that had to come back to the middle before I could move on. In all this time, I started private practice in '83, so I was very busy at work. What would happen frequently was I could ignore it until I saw and this may sound silly, but I'd see an attractive woman in a dress I liked, and I would go not into a deep depression, but certainly dysthymia is the word I was taught. It's just low-level depression almost all the time. 菲尔·瓦格纳我不禁想起。我想这个词应该是携带自我憎恨的情感劳动。我们现在谈论了很多关于多元化、公平和包容性的工作,关于员工把他们完整和真实的自我带到工作中。你的经历与此相去甚远。这对你的专业工作有影响吗?我的意思是,即使在那之前,开始一项实践并拥有非常成功的事业也必须受到损害,至少在一定程度上是因为你不能真实地生活,也许是出于安全原因,即使在当时。这在专业领域是如何发挥作用的呢?有什么影响吗? Deborah Fabian博士老实说,我不认为这影响了我的个人。我很擅长隐藏它,也很擅长隐藏自己。然而,它确实影响了人际关系。我现在的前妻,她很早就发现了这件事,她告诉我你从不谈论这件事,你不能这么做,你很恶心,坦白说,这就是为什么她现在是我前妻。但我很擅长掩盖事实继续前进,因为坦白地说,作为外科医生,你要学会的就是连续三晚没合眼,但你要去工作。我不认为这影响了我的手术实践。它影响了我快乐的能力。 菲尔·瓦格纳所以我很欣赏这种观点,我认为这确实说明了一些经历,尤其是跨性别者所面临的需要将身份分成几部分,并为安全或专业起见将其分割成特定的空间。这很复杂,我知道这段旅程对你们来说也很复杂。你一直都很坦率。我想知道我们是否能更接近你62岁的时候,那时你确实是黛博拉。是什么让你说这个时刻。在这一点上,我在个人、职业和社交方面都很舒服,能够真正过上真实的生活。你能解释一下吗? Deborah Fabian博士确定。80年代末最大的一件事就是遇到了我现在的妻子。我是在我的治疗师家里认识她的,因为我被邀请给一群女性介绍跨性别主义,我的治疗师是一个社会群体,她也是其中的一员。所以我吓得要死。那大约是在87或88年,我的妻子莱斯利是那个小组的成员,她的描述和我的不一样。我把它描述为完全害怕在场的每个人,害怕做我自己。她描述说,她想要找到真实的自己,愿意敞开心扉。那时候我还和别人结婚了,但我们彼此了解了,说来话长,还有很多事情。但三年后我们结婚了,她知道我的一切。所以能够和某人在一起,当然是亲密关系,也可以是任何关系,完全在那里对我来说是一种新的体验。 I didn't need to cover up, lie about anything. I wouldn't say she encouraged me to cross-dress, but it was always like, sure you want to, let's do it. Let's go out to dinner. It was never a secret. Again, that was '91, so we just had our 30th anniversary two weeks ago. So she encouraged me to not cover it up. And gradually she had a lot of friends, turns out I have a lot of friends who cared about me who were happy, felt privileged to know about me. That was a slow process, and I was seeing a couple of different therapists at the time. I had been on antidepressants for a couple of decades, actually, and they weren't working. In 2009, I was in practice in Gardner, Massachusetts, very successful practice, but I was quite depressed. And what she said one day was, I'm tired of you being depressed all the time. I don't like being around you. I love you, but you just know I don't like being with you. So we went to see an endocrinologist in Boston shortly after that. The psychological process has been my whole life. The physical process of transition began in 2009, and what I decided to do during that time. It's hard to describe getting over the self-loathing to the neutral position, to getting to the point of, oh, okay, not just okay. This is me. So that process is frankly probably still going on, but for a couple of years, I transitioned full-time in October of 2011. But from '09 to 2011, at some point in there, I decided what I'll do when I go to work in the morning. I will find somebody every day to tell, and it worked. I gradually, of course, I picked easy people first, and then I ran out of those, and I had to go to others. Eventually, I told the CEO and whatever they call board of directors. The more I did that. This is before I formally transitioned. It just became, "You know what? This is me." So it really was about getting to be okay with myself. That's the key thing. Because once I was okay with myself, anything anybody else said just doesn't matter. 菲尔·瓦格纳我想知道这个过程,因为你做得很慢,一开始你很容易就赢了。那些不知道你叫黛博拉的人会立刻接受你的名字吗?我相信在那里也有一些艰难的对话。那是什么感觉,在那些对话中,我是什么样的人,甚至只是语义上的?你现在是这么称呼我的。我认为我们经常谈论代词,但我认为随着我们与他人的交流互动,也有很多变化。你能说说那对你和你的朋友,同事,甚至病人来说是什么感觉吗? Deborah Fabian博士当我每次只选择一个人交谈时,我是男性。我是大卫,穿着大卫的衣服,说话也像大卫。同样,我选择了随和的人。谈话通常是,哦,好吧。这很有道理。或者我懂了,或者只是一个大大的拥抱。先做简单的部分。这让我对自己产生了一点信心,而不仅仅是信心,某种程度上是把我的感受建立在基础上,并能够用语言表达出来。当我在工作上永久转型时,我是医院道德委员会的一员,2011年10月26日,轮到我为这个道德委员会挑选演讲者。所以我说,好吧,如果我能选一个人,我就选我自己。 So the word got out. I had taken several weeks off, and the word got out that I was coming back looking a little different. So it was packed, standing room only in the auditorium, and I told my story, including a lot of things I'm saying today. And I got a huge standing ovation and nothing but hugs and welcome. Now that was the easy day. So you mentioned practice and coming out to patients and things. That was quite a bit more difficult. As I said, I was solo, private practice. I rented space in the hospital. I needed a constant. As an orthopedic surgeon, you fix one person, then they go on, and you just need a constant influx of new patients all the time. My practice slowly died. Took about four years and the last couple of months I had to borrow money to pay my staff. There were a number of really memorable moments during that time. A month or so after I started working as Deborah, I had a patient who, it's my favorite story. He had a Vietnam campaign hat on and Vietnam jacket, and clearly, he'd been through it. I didn't serve in Vietnam, but I was in the military in the Vietnam era. So I have great respect. So I told him, you need some surgery. Here's what we need to do. He said, yes, thank you. I don't know that I want you to do it, and he pointed at me and indicated what he meant. I got it, and I don't want to operate on anybody who doesn't want me to. But I said to him. I get it. But just so you know, I was active duty during Vietnam. Actually, I was reserves during Vietnam. I spent three years as a battalion surgeon for a Marine Infantry Battalion and then five more years in the reserves. So I understand Marines, and I respect you, and just so you know, I have that background. Then he stopped for a second and said, "Oh, jeez, you were with the Marines?" I said yeah. "Oh, when can you schedule the surgery?" That to me, it just told me how I should live, basically. I'm out there. I'm honest. People ask me, why don't you try to change your voice? Well, I tried, and I could change my voice, raise it, or whatever women do. But I couldn't think about what I wanted to say. All I did was think about how my voice sounded, and I said, I'm just going to talk. 菲尔·瓦格纳我很喜欢这个故事,黛博拉。我喜欢的一件事是,我认为,它真的鼓励我们不要把人们视为他们身份的一个方面。就像不只是黛博拉是变性人一样。黛博拉也有军事经验,也是一名医生,还有,还有,还有。我认为这是一个非常有力的提醒,不要把人简化为可见的或我们想要的样子,因为那样很容易。当你分享的时候,我想到的另一件事是,哦,天哪,你怎么有。我不知道该怎么说。我不知道这是成熟,还是自信,或者是不把这些评论放在心上的自我决心。我是说,这话太伤人了。有一个完全合格的有治愈能力的医生在你面前说我不想让你做那个。 Your response is ridiculously gracious. How did you get to the point where you didn't take it personally or was it personal, and it's something you dealt with to the side. Was that therapy? How do you get to that place? Deborah Fabian博士它还在继续,虽然不再那么多了。我在这里。那是在我刚变性的时候。在这种特殊情况下,当我看到有人穿着越战夹克时,我总是强调这一点。我总是坚持走到他们面前,和他们握手,对他们的服役表示感谢。我当时不在场,但我知道那是什么感觉。我有很多朋友在那里被杀。所以我非常尊重和同情所有这样做的人。所以对我来说,听他说话很容易,因为我凭直觉知道,虽然我不知道他的具体细节,但我知道他以某种方式经历过什么。所以,在这种特殊情况下,这是非常重要的。 So sometime in 2014. Well, I'm going to back up because in 2011, when I was getting ready to transition in the spring-summer, I intuitively knew my practice was going to take a hit. So I started looking at other jobs. I was still dressed and presenting and using male pronouns. I applied for a job as an orthopedic hospitalist hospital in Connecticut. I had to fly down, talk to the current organization. Interviewed, was offered the position. There were three of us. They needed three full-time, so I was offered the job. This was about June or July, and I wasn't going to start till the fall. So I knew I was going to show up on day one as me, not as the guy they interviewed because I have always thought, not always, but more recently I've thought, I just got to tell you I don't want to surprise anybody. So I went down to the hospital and told them, and it was several of the senior people. Just so you know, when I show up, and I was a guy at the time, I'm going to look a little different. I had some pictures of me at that meeting. It was oh great. No problem. Two weeks later, I got a call. The job offer has been rescinded, and so I- 菲尔·瓦格纳是这个原因吗?你知道吗?你非要假设吗?他们解释了吗? Deborah Fabian博士他们撒了谎。这是一个五年半的故事,但我要把它剪短。他们编造了一些关于我的谎言,他们说我在面试中说了一些明目张胆的话,我永远不会说这些话。我为什么要对自己撒谎?所以在我告诉他们之前我已经和律师谈过了,他说你不需要告诉他们。你可以第一天就出现,而他们却无能为力。但这不是我想要的开始工作的方式每个人都在生我的气。所以在我的工作被撤销后,我给律师打了电话,我们提起了诉讼,这不是一个简单的过程,你可能知道,诉讼。 菲尔·瓦格纳确定。 黛博拉·瓦格纳博士有多次证词,五年半左右。我听了他们的很多次证词,那时我已经变性了,只是为了被骗。我想从那时起,我在这场运动中变得有点活跃,你不会对我撒谎。我们可以讨论一下我是不是一个好的整形外科医生。我们可以讨论你的病人是否愿意接受整形外科医生,但别对我撒谎。让我证明我自己。这对我很有帮助,因为我很生气,我准备上法庭,但我们最终解决了,五年后,也就是2017年左右。我不能告诉你诉讼的名字,但那是康涅狄格州中部的一家医院。所以法比安对某家医院你可以查一下。 I'm really proud of this. It became part of the Supreme Court argument within the last year. People said, well, you ought to sue for three, five, or six million. Well, it wasn't nearly anywhere near that. The money actually wasn't the point, although it was enough to hurt them a little bit. It was enough to make me feel I'd done the right thing. Other people have cited that lawsuit, so. I don't know if I'm answering your question anymore. Getting angry at being treated wrongly. That's what did it for me. So during that time, I decided nobody's going to treat me that way. I'm not going to accept that. 菲尔·瓦格纳所以我们有两种对话,我们开始讨论非常非常积极的对话。我很感激你在那里带头,也分享了一些伤人的、非常艰难的对话。我想,我可能错了,可能有一个子集的对话是在这两者之间。我想谈谈社会支持。我敢肯定,在你的职业生涯中,即使是善意的同事也经常说一些不完全包容或不恰当的话。比如对细节的过度好奇,或者高度侵犯性的问题,因为我知道那些是我们读到的变性人在出柜时面临的一些常见障碍。你有过这样的经历吗?你如何应对那些好心的人,他们可能会越界,问一些坦率地说与他们无关的问题?你有什么沟通策略可以分享吗? Deborah Fabian博士我妻子和我经常讨论这个问题,因为这种情况确实会发生。当人们问我:“你做过手术吗?”我和莱斯利最喜欢的一句话是这样说的。这取决于我对那个人的感觉,是的,这真的不关你的事,或者两个,告诉你什么?你告诉我你的生殖器,我就告诉你我的。这使几个人闭嘴了。 菲尔·瓦格纳我希望这通常会让他们闭嘴。 Deborah Fabian博士再说一遍,很大一部分原因是我能接受自己。还有一种经历与此类似。当我在波尔克堡的时候,我们开了一个全院范围的大会议,这个礼堂里有三四百人。那是在2016年大选之后,我和军队以及退役军人坐在一起。一个人站在我后面几排,站起来开始抨击变性人,尤其是我,告诉我我有多糟糕,上帝会怎么做,我会下地狱等等。 菲尔·瓦格纳但直接给你。 Deborah Fabian博士他正对着我。我在300多人面前面对他。所以我拿着另一个麦克风,就该说些什么,我争论了很长时间。我想说的一件事是,马克·吐温曾经说过,“永远不要和傻瓜争论。人们可能无法分辨其中的区别。”我排除了这种可能性。这对他来说太微妙了,但他一直叫我“他”和“先生”。当他终于闭上嘴的时候,我只是说:“使用对方的代名词是非常礼貌的习惯,如果你不知道,就问问他们的偏好。”这并没有让他闭嘴。于是他继续说下去,五分钟后,我说:“在我说出令我后悔的话之前,我要把麦克风还给你。” I did, and I got a huge applause. I couldn't have done that five years earlier, and that has really been and continues to be "I'm okay with myself." I'm willing, and I say it all the time. Yeah, I'm weird. I get it. I'm different. When people say, we don't understand it. I say you can't understand it. I've lived it for 70 years now, and if you're trying to make sense of it based on your own perspective of life, you'll never do it. You can't do it. 菲尔·瓦格纳是的,这里面有很多东西需要解释,但我认为它提出了一个问题,即我们如何用你的故事来塑造和引导年轻一代。我认为这是一次真正的接触,不仅是敌意,而且是暴力。你可以看到这样的对话是如何变得非常激烈,甚至可能导致身体暴力,我知道这是跨性别群体面临的重大问题。所以我想知道,我想要注意不要给你太多的负担,但我想知道你是否能从你自己的经历中说出来或与其他专业人士分享建议,年轻的,年老的都不重要,谁可能在你所在的地方,并在工作时考虑过渡。这里有一些复杂的东西。可能是暴力,可能是敌意。你对这些人有什么见解、建议或想法吗?特别是他们应该考虑什么? Deborah Fabian博士我认为对我来说最重要的是接受自己。说句题外话,我知道有。当有人叫我“他”或“他”时,这要视情况而定。但我通常会说,如果你使用女性代词,我会很感激,大多数人会说,“哦,我很抱歉。我不是故意的。”我有一些我认识的人的照片他们在别人的脸上。你犯了一个错误,“你怎么敢?”性别错误这个词,我总是能得到很好的结果,我只是说如果你用这个词我会很感激,然后就离开这种情况。我不确定我说的是否准确,但我觉得我通过做一个好人,一个好的外科医生,通过照顾我的病人,通过对其他人友善,比完全对抗得到了更好的结果。就像约翰尼·卡什说的那样:“当你可以的时候,远离麻烦。” If somebody is an idiot, I'm not going to make them not be an idiot, and that's not my job. When I talk to students, in fact, I was down at William & Mary a couple of years ago to the Lavender Group, and one of the messages I gave was if you're transitioning or if you're coming out as gay or lesbian or whatever, make sure you are excellent at what you do. Be an excellent surgeon, be an excellent teacher, be an excellent whatever, and then if you're discriminated against, you know it's not because of your qualifications or you. It's because of them. 菲尔·瓦格纳我在想,也许反过来说,你可以和经理、领导、主管、同事交谈,他们不是跨性别者,比如顺性别者。我想知道你是否有什么建议,你希望你周围的人在你62岁出柜之前知道什么信息,或者你希望你周围的人知道什么是有效的或最好的跨性别联盟。盟友关系不仅仅是表现上的,而且实际上是有意义的和支持性的,以及那些人在整个过程中所需要的所有这些东西。 Deborah Fabian博士这里面有很多东西。 菲尔·瓦格纳我知道。这是个大问题,可能措辞也不好。 Deborah Fabian博士不,我来。你说话的时候,我有各种各样的想法。第一点,最重要的一点,是关心。因为我的声音我和别人打电话的时候,总是叫"先生"即使我现在尝试,我也不能做得不同。所以照顾。当我纠正别人的时候,这种情况经常发生,我不会说每天,但几乎每天。有人会说,因为我是高级外科医生,他们会说,先生,我说,你介意用她或女士吗?几乎每个人都会立刻感觉很糟糕。就像我搞砸了一样。 How can you forgive me? I say that's okay. And some people, I think some trans people take that very personally when they get misgendered. I don't. I wish everybody called me ma'am, and I wish I was five foot four and size four, and I'm not. I'm six feet tall. So when they're very apologetic, I say all I ask of you to do is to care. And if you care, then, yeah. I screw up all the time. So what was your question? 菲尔·瓦格纳不,你说到了问题的核心。那些领导,有影响力的经理,甚至只是同事的盟友,是什么构成了有效的盟友关系? Deborah Fabian博士关心这个人。第一,无论我们给一个人贴上什么标签,都是基于他们的人性。这是一个深刻的陈述。我以前从没这么说过。他们是一个人。他们是你的朋友。它们是你的。如果你需要给它们贴上标签。我做过这个演讲,我说,如果我给你贴上纽约洋基队球迷的标签,而我是红袜队球迷,我们永远不会在任何事情上意见一致。所以这超越了你所贴上的标签,我希望我能成为一个榜样,让很多事情不再困扰我。 There are some things I won't let roll off my back. That's being impolite to me. Threatening me, I've had that. But a good ally, number one, cares about the person—male, female wearing a dress or blue jeans or whatever. You care. When you don't know something, when people don't know my pronouns, I want them to ask me, "What pronouns do you prefer?" Just what you're saying? How can I be of support to you? That's number one advice. 菲尔·瓦格纳简单。我喜欢这种超越。它甚至道出了你经历过的那些情况的核心,如果你运用同情的价值,关心他人,这将会增强你的领导力。一般来说,它会增强你的能力。我觉得那里没什么可失去的。我还有最后一个问题要问你 Deborah Fabian博士再进一步说明一下。 菲尔·瓦格纳哦,是的。大胆尝试吧。 Deborah Fabian博士因为如果你把一个人当作一个标签,你给他们贴上了标签,这就是你看待他们的方式。如果你把他们当成一个人,顺便说一句,他是变性人。但首先,第一,你的员工或你的老师,或其他什么人,她是一个人。剩下的对我来说很容易。那么标签就不重要了。 菲尔·瓦格纳最后一个问题,黛博拉。我们谈了很多关于你的历史,你的旅程,你的经历,你带来了一段不可思议的历史,因为你现在接近退休,进入了人生的一个不同阶段。我想知道,当我们看你的故事时,我们能学到什么,特别是关于包容、同情和关心跨性别者意味着什么。我们能从你的故事中学到什么? Deborah Fabian博士我想到了很多事情。第一,我已经说过了。关心他人。如果你这样做了,那么无论你给他们贴上什么标签都不再重要了。这是为了我们的盟友。为了我个人,也为了他人,爱你自己。我在72岁的时候说,回到那个时候,不管25岁还是什么时候,当我被枪顶着脑袋的时候,这并不是那么容易说出来的。但你该怎么做就怎么做。进行治疗。和这样的人在一起,要意识到自己并没有错。 菲尔·瓦格纳黛布,能和你聊天真是太好了,我很感激你这么乐于助人。我只能说,你真的很感激。这不是你必须要做的事。我不认为塑造或引导我们的理解是你的责任,但有责任。我认为我们可以从你的经历中学到很多东西,我非常感谢你愿意与我们和我们的听众分享这段经历。非常感谢。 Deborah Fabian博士很高兴见到你菲尔真的很喜欢。谢谢你们邀请我。 菲尔·瓦格纳感谢大家抽出时间收听《多样性发挥作用》。如果你喜欢你听到的,和朋友分享这个节目。在苹果播客或任何你听播客的地方给我们留下评论,并联系我们,因为我们一直在寻找新朋友。如果你想了解更多关于威廉玛丽商学院的课程或计划,请访问我们的网站www.simplesudz.com。下次见。 |